Mathematics - Can you?

Hi there,
I am personally quite strong at good old Maths but not very strong. In

Maths, I find that somthing has to be able to be directly relevant to my task otherwise I find difficulty in understanding it.

I was surprised by just how little Maths there is involved in programming, okay, there is some, granted but on the whole it is mostly logic.

What are you guys like at Mathematics/what do you find hard/easy?

I was surprised by just how little Maths there is involved in programming
That depends on what kind of program you are making. A notepad clone probably won't involve any math, while a game (like Mario) requires quite a bit of math.

I don't *find* anything hard. Nothing is hard, I just haven't learned how to do it yet, and I know enough about Math to do what I need to do, so I guess I'm pretty good.

Hmmm, I used to be good at maths in school, but now that I'm working I hardly use any of it.
If I look at the grades on my diploma, then I think I'm good at maths. Most of it is logic to me, just like programming.

Anyway, I agree with Iceplug, you just need to learn.

I think that the word hard is used in two ways in the context of mathematics. When people say maths is hard, they usually mean that they find it difficult because of a lack of knowledge and/or practice. But some mathematical problems are intrinsically hard in the sense that there is no easy easy and quick algorithm no matter how mathematically adept you are. For example, factorising very large non-primes. I think you are right that there isn't a great deal of mathematics involved in programming as such, but a particular program may require much more, as Iceplug indicated. :)

Yes, I think in some way - I agree with every single post so far.

In fact, I am actually not very confident with Maths at all but then I tend to get high marks in school coursework and suchlike.

I think I surprise myself sometimes, If there is a way to do something that doesn't involve Maths - i will do it. If Maths is required I will simply break the task into smaller pieces - I supppose alot of my lack of confidence is down to my personal outlook rather than my actualy ability.

Regards

Jord

That depends on what kind of program you are making. A notepad clone probably won't involve any math, while a game (like Mario) requires quite a bit of math.

I don't *find* anything hard. Nothing is hard, I just haven't learned how to do it yet, and I know enough about Math to do what I need to do, so I guess I'm pretty good.
Pretty?
You are too good :)

lol

I consider myself very good at maths, and I think that programming has a lot to do with it. Logic is like a branch of maths, in the way I see it. That's all I have to say for now :)

Yes - I agree, it does have a great deal to do with Logic - however, I can also be quite creative at times aswell :)

Jord

Funny: Colleges require you to take a calculus class for a computer science degree.
I have never even used pre-algebra in programming, so I can't see their reasoning.

The early Computer Science departments grew out of the Mathematics departments out of necessity, as only math people could be expected to understand the crude, early computer implementations. That should be changing as computer techniques spread to all fields of learning, but inertia is powerful.

We do use advanced math in rocketry (thrust, mass, gravitation, that stuff)and even in weather modeling, so there is a place for it; but that's in the application and not the underlying programming. After all, all that the computer can do is add numbers very fast, so a programmer who's given the algorithms by an analyst doesn't usually have to understand the math to implement them. But I'd argue that the more of the math (and the science) thatr you know, the better your chance at a more creative solution to some problems.

I would say I'm ok - good at maths.
I explicitly avoided A level maths as that is prob beyond me without spending hours practicing.
However, I do enjoy the odd algebra challenge in VB. The challenge for the formula to be as generic as possible and accept any input.
Simple stuff like reversing the value of a slider control proportionally is my idea of enjoyabilitly when it works.
This is a piece of code that makes a form bounce when you move it by clickin on the form and releasing the mouse button on a random place of the screen. I thought it up in a couple of minutes and worked straight away...well the counter needed resetting but that was it. I'm sure it can be made more efficient but here it is:

Dim totalY, totalX, tCounter, clickY, clickX As Integer
Dim blnDone As Boolean
Public Sub moveForm(ByRef frm As Form, ByVal startY As Integer, ByVal endY As Integer, ByVal startX As Integer, ByVal endX As Integer)

totalY = endY - startY
totalX = endX - startX
frm.Top = frm.Top + totalY
frm.Left = frm.Left + totalX
totalY = Int(totalY / 20)
totalX = Int(totalX / 20)
Timer1.Enabled = True
End Sub

Private Sub Form_MouseDown(Button As Integer, Shift As Integer, X As Single, Y As Single)
clickY = Y
clickX = X
End Sub

Private Sub Form_MouseUp(Button As Integer, Shift As Integer, X As Single, Y As Single)
Call moveForm(Me, clickY, Y, clickX, X)
End Sub

Private Sub Timer1_Timer()
If blnDone = False Then
Me.Left = Me.Left - totalX
Me.Top = Me.Top - totalY
Else
Me.Left = Me.Left + totalX
Me.Top = Me.Top + totalY
totalX = totalX - Int(totalX / 5)
totalY = totalY - Int(totalY / 5)
End If
If tCounter = 20 Then
Timer1.Enabled = False
tCounter = 0
End If
blnDone = Not blnDone
tCounter = tCounter + 1
End Sub

Funny: Colleges require you to take a calculus class for a computer science degree.
I have never even used pre-algebra in programming, so I can't see their reasoning.
Well, calculus will probably help you more when you start using programs for real situations, like statistics or falling objects, where you have to approximate derivatives, integrals, and the like.

Pre-algebra? That makes your math processes simpler. :)

In primary school I was always good at arithmetic. In secondary school I became progressively poorer at maths and convinced that I was a thicko.
After school I always had a 'thing' about trying to prove that I could
get to grips with it and have been tryingon and off ever since. I've learnt a bit in the meantime both through reading around maths in general and through tiny moments of revelation when I've been able to break
through some of my complexes about the subject

I think that 2 of the biggest problems in maths are
1: teachers who know their stuff but can't communicate with non trained mathematicians. They're a waste of space imho.
and
2: Teachers who don't understand maths.

There's a lot of both sorts around
With the first type, you don't understand
what they're on about and think that maths must
be beyond you. The second sort go around acting
defensive and telling you to "just accept this and that"
and "to just learn it"

The end result is that you are left feeling
that only geniuses can understand maths
and you go through life being intimidated
by the subject.

I remember learning proofs and just being
completely Maybe 10 lines in it
that after a lot of work I came to understand.
What I couldn't comprehend was the sort of
mind that had made the leap of logic from one
line to the next. Teachers just threw these at you
as though they were unworthy of any special
comment. Since then I've learned that a lot of these
elegant proofs are the distillation of a lot of grunt
work involving many blind alleys and trial and error.
Very often there are no moments of genius. It's like
when you've spent hours alone trying to an electrical
appliance and finally through a pure fluke you sorted
the problem. Then you understand the nature of the problem
and the symptoms such a problem would present. Eureka!
The the wife comes home and you say "By the way I
fixed the washing machine, yeah there was poor connection
, no big deal, you see......" and is she impressed or what!
Maths to most people is like connecting up and tuning a satellite receiver,
video and tv is to women and old people, INTIMIDATING, and as long
as there's someone else around to do it they're going
to avoid it.

I know exactly what you mean!
I feel so frustratec at college with my teachers
I have a very motivated and good teacher who used to be a systems analyst [thus comms skills] who gets the worst units to teach to an uniterested class while the worst teacher the college posseses gets to teach the pogramming, and thus enjoyable, units where people need help.
Ask him for help and he will take your help and click Help->help topics
He is completely ignorant and always feels as if your attacking him and has to defend himself.
The C++ classes were an entire waste of time getting to copy the same old program over and over again while moduralization was taught as 'every1 write a different piece of code and "bolt it together"'. My many arguments with him have only ended in frustration.
He's just not up to it and it gets me even madder when there is a motivated, knowledgable teacher out there who actually could give the assistance some of the people are in dire need of.
IMO classes are flawed.
[end rant]

Hi there,
I am personally quite strong at good old Maths but not very strong. In

Maths, I find that somthing has to be able to be directly relevant to my task otherwise I find difficulty in understanding it.

I was surprised by just how little Maths there is involved in programming, okay, there is some, granted but on the whole it is mostly logic.

What are you guys like at Mathematics/what do you find hard/easy?
There's plenty of Mathmatics to programming... Like Iceplug said. Code a game and you'll find out REAL Quick...

Speaking of Iceplug and his "modesty"... (he's not a Guru by mistake), here is a piece of code he game to to calculate which Tile I click on in my isometric game engine. I would have NEVER figured that out.

'Code by Iceplug
TileX = Int((((0.5 * X) + Y) - 16) / 32)
TileY = Int((((-0.5 * X) + Y) + 16) / 32)

I don't know if I ever got to Thank the Ice Plugster for that one BTW.... Thanks mate!

i agree with iceplug when he says that not all programs need maths but there are some programs that are entirely dependent on maths, a good example is Image Processing (coding using algorithms rather than using third party classes like the image processing package by intel or MathLab). I did not know much about image processing but with my fluency in maths, i picked it up rather fast as most of it was maths.

Anyway i was known as a nerd in school :chuckle: but who cares ;) as long as i was loving it.

Iceplug, if you say you are pretty good than i dont know how to rate myself :)

Algebra is cool. Calc is cool. Geometry is cool.

Trig sucks. :)

Dan

dipique,
AGREED!!!

Sorry but I have to disagree ;)... trig lets you make those neat circley moving enemies and make them spin and such. Then once you master that, you can have other advanced movements as well.

Algebra is cool. Calc is cool. Geometry is cool.

Trig sucks. :)

Dan

But Number Theory is coolest...! :)

If you like logic than math should be a breeze for you because math is logic. There was a man on the $64,000 question that answered all the questions right. He had a photographic mind and could remember anything he read. However, he didn't know how to use any of it. I'm kind of that way myself. I took all the math I could but have to be prodded in the right direction to use it. I wrote a program to do flow calculation in a water distribution system and it was taking forever to run. Someone suggested that I use a Jacobian matrix. I hadn't thought about that as when I studied it they didn't say anything about fluid flow. When included in the program it sped up 100x.
There are some of us that know the math but don't have the logic to use it.
Wayne

The sort of maths that people use in programming is applied maths/engineering maths and not pure maths.
Applied/Engineering maths, to me, is like Advanced arithmetic, you just learn the algoritm and use it. It doesn't mean you're any good at maths. Any Pure maths that I've come across has naff all to do with numbers

IMHO the divide between pure and applied mathematics is arbitrary and artificial, and in any case, some would say that number theory is the purest of the pure, and it has everything to do with numbers!. :)

sseller
I'm not a pure mathematician at all, i'm an arithmetician at best, I like engineering maths as it deals with stuff I can relate to, I just don't get Philosophy to any real extent. I do like number theory in small doses. I quite got into "trying" to understand public key encryption for example.

Yes, I know what you mean! Most of the time I stick to "practical" maths too. But I find number theory intriguing... probably just a nerdy phase I'm going through... it was the same with fractals! :)