Just Your Opinions

I work for a small IT Consulting Firm in the Midwest. I am the only programmer employed here. Initially I was hired (at $11/hr) as a web developer to create websites mostly HTML, but some Flash (Which I love). When he (my boss) discovered that I could program in VB, VC++, and Java (Not an expert, beginner stuff) and do Databases. He assigned me to creating custom databases mostly Access (because that's what our clients use.) and custom software design (im using VB right now). I still create website whenever needed also. Is it just me or or am I getting screwed making $11/hr for custom website/database and software design? Granted I have been working here since Feb 4 2002, and I graduated Apr. 26, 2002. And BTW I was supposed to get a raise when I graduated and put my 90 days in (which was May 4, 2002) I am feeling a little exploited! but, I am not sure what to do about it. this is a small town and I can't jsut go get another job...as much as I would like too.

Can a functional Court Software Program be created in less than a month???

All depends on how big it is!... We dont know the specification & requirements!.. Cant say anything!..

The Law of Supply and Demands at work. If you want to stay in that little town and the demand is quite low, I think you're not screwed up. If I am in your place, I will make that an opportunity to learn better in VB, C++ & Java for a better pay someday --- and, so it wont break your heart if you realize later you're being screwed up.

If you cant get another job at the moment stick to it!.. And try to learn more!... I am sure, new opportunities will arise for you.
Good Luck!
:)

i don't want to sound like I am ing, because I like the job. I am new to the industry and i'm not familiar with general practices. As far as the software application goes. The DB is about 6 tables, with about 12-14 forms and 6-10 reports. My boss thinks it can be done in a month, i think he is over-looking some things. 1) my skill level , although I have experience with VB alot of what I am trying to implement is new to me (School can only teach you so much). 2)He has never done this, so he hasn't a clue as to how long it would take anyway 3) I don't have anyone to turn (I am the only programmer here) to for help or advice, so I have to use forums like this one to get the answers I am looking for, and sometimes it can take a day or two to get a reply.
Anyway, I like the job. The town sucks, but I only came here to finish my schooling. After I get some experience I will be going back home to KC. I know as time progesses so will my knowledge and paycheck! Later Thanks for your opinions!

Well, I think the month timeframe is probably in the right order of magnitude for a VB programmer experienced with databases. (Note that I didn't say Close Order of magnitude - this means that I would be surprised if it took 10 times less or 10 times more time, but not if double or or half) Depending upon the complexity of the reports, though, they alone could take a month or more. You may have to build all kinds of queries or scratch tables just to support them. You may not. It reallly depends upon what needs to be done more than the number of forms/reports.

As far as the raise, I would suggest tactfully "reminding" your boss about it. Something like "I know you've got a lot on your plate, but I just wanted to remind you that it's been over 90 days since I graduated. You remember - I was supposed to get a raise then."

IMHO you should be getting a rise. Your job description has changed quite a lot, from doing web design, to software development. That deserves at least a small raise, so mention it to your boss. The worst he can do is say no, in which case, you can tell him to.... well, whatever springs to mind :p

It is really quite impossible for anyone to know how long it might take you. MAYBE if you supplied more information pertaining to exact specifications, report designs, data counts, etc. But then there's the whole factor of your skillset which we can't really judge. Anyway, at that point, we're kind of doing your job. Project estimation and design are a very import part of a programmer's job.

My suggestion is to go to your boss with the same kind of concerns you've expressed here and give an estimate based on that. Create a design document outlining exactly what you want to do for the project including estimated times for completing individual tasks (creating database structures, creating VB user interface, defining report requirements, creating reports, testing VB user interface, testing reports, fixing bugs, etc.). Make sure to write in the document the "risks" which include any unknowns and potential hurdles you will face that will cause the project to slip.

On the issue of money... Yes, it's a supply and demand thing. But if you're able to put together a project like this and deliver it in a semi-reasonable time, then you probably could be getting more money elsewhere. I don't know anything about your town though. It seems like I'm the only one willing to come out and say it but I think you're getting screwed. It isn't necessary a horrible thing if you're getting other advantages besides money (living in a town you like [doesn't seem to be the case for you though] or gaining experience while starting out in the field). While you are sacrificing pay to be working here, I'd do as much as you can for experience, including taking some Microsoft certification exams. Once you get an MCP under your belt, you'll have somewhat of a bench mark that your current employer and other companies can look at.

In the meantime, there are also lots of salary surveys out there that do a pretty good job of breaking down expected salaries for programmers based on geographic areas, experience level, education, certification, etc. Take a look at Visual Studio Magazine's 2002 Salary Survey (http://www.fawcette.com/vsm/2002_06/magazine/features/pfalzer/) and Microsoft Certified Professional Magazine's 2001 Salary Survey (http://www.mcpmag.com/salarysurveys/) . Just keep in mind your level of experience compared to others surveyed. These two magazines, by the way, are also great resources that can help you out a lot. I would subscribe to them both if I were you.

This project sounds like it can be done in a month.

As far as your sallary, I agree with what Cheif sad... GET A RAISE.

Can a functional Court Software Program be created in less than a month???That depends on several things.

1) Since you are getting paid hourly that means, by law, you should get paid overtime (pay/hr * 1.5) for every hour worked over 40 hours in the workweek (Mon-Fri).

2) Lets say an ultra-complex VB program takes 500 hours and an average one is 250. (I’ll presume yours will take 300 hours.) Considering a 160-hour work month and you being the only programmer, that is about 140 man-hours of overtime. The math would be… (160 * 11) + (140*16.5) = $4070. Essentially, this is a cost of about $770 “extra” dollars to get the program done with overtime vice normal work hours. Is your boss willing to pay (you) this?

Obviously, to avoid this, most “big time” software companies pay their employees a salary. If you were in this situation and worked for salary, then you better put another pot of coffee on and crank up the music, because you have some long nights ahead.

PS – Since you are doing things above and beyond the initial job description, you undoubtedly deserve a raise. If your boss is happy with your work thus far, then he will want to keep you on board at almost any cost. Go for the gusto! :D

Having had some brief experience with a court system, I find it
hard to believe that anything useful could be done in less than six
months. This assumes a certain familiarity with the processes
involved too. One of the main considerations is the legal
requirements of the governing jurisdiction. If the system does
something that isn't according to the rules and laws, convictions
could be overturned, and the members of the judicial system
could be sued.

Very true Thinker. You wouldn't want to rush this program and screw things up. You could end up a sending a person guilty of a speeding violation to a maximum security prison for life and penalizing a convicted rapist by adding 5 points to his driving record.

DOH!!:eek:

Can a functional Court Software Program be created in less than a month???
..not wishing to defeatist, but.. "'functional' - No"
Even 'small' projects usually double in requirements/complexity as development progresses - and that's when you already have a paper system which the owner REALLY understands! Not to mention that fact that lots of experience in analysis/design can dramatically reduce your head-ache time (but never completely)...

About your pay, write a letter to the boss, first detailing your job-desription when you accepted the role - and then how it is now and also what value you have since added to the company.
After you've re-written it a few times, you'll know if you have a case or not. A nervous stutter through a crack in your bosses door will end up with you running off with your tail betwen your legs! :p

Good luck! :)

Thinker, I understand what you said... but if his boss only wants . The DB is about 6 tables, with about 12-14 forms and 6-10 reports. then it doesn't sound very detailed nor usefull.

I have found more flexibility with number of hours worked than actual hourly pay - If the projects are there - try to add one or two.

Good News Gentleman...

I talked to my boss about getting that raise. His response is below... Hope you like it. (We had agreed on a raise after I graduated)

I would like to remind you that you are getting paid more than what a person still in school should be getting paid and you have to admit you know less than what you portrayed in your application. Also, you have been doing a lot of learning while on the job ... you can not complain about getting paid to learn and surf 3D websites. I did tell you I would I get you health insurance in 90 days tho. You chose to opt out of the insurance which I appreciate.

Some things to point out regarding his response.

1) I am no longer in school. I graduated Apr. 26, 2002

2) I am totally lost as to what he means about knowing less than I portrayed in my application...(Apparently, he was under the assumption that I was quite experienced...In that case he was definitely trying to screw me by paying $11/hr)

3) Being hired as a web developer, you generally want to browse the internet to view what is hot, what new techniques are being used...And I was wanting to get a feel for creating a 3-D interactive website.

4) The health insurance he mentions...Let's break this down...I have a wife and a baby girl 4 months old. My premiums to cover my family would have been $456.27/month...And my total take home pay is $1473.36...Which would have left me a grand total of $1017.09 to cover all of my monthly bills....The insurance premiums amounted to almost 1/3 of my monthly income!!

But, the good news is I have found another job...and will be starting in July, as a programmer making in the 40's.

Originally posted by Memnoch1207
...But, the good news is I have found another job...and will be starting in July, as a programmer making in the 40's.

Congrats mate. As I was reading his response to you, my reccomendation was going to be that you look for a new job, but obviously you already thought of that.

Good luck with the new job. Now if I could only find a nice programming job ;)

Orbity

Congratulations, Memnoch. Sounds like you definitely made the right choice. Your current boss will probably regret his decision when he tries to replace you at the same wage. Hope you enjoy your new job!

Your soon-to-be-ex boss sounds like a real powertool. Best not to dispute it with him. Make sure you give him whatever contractual notification you are obligated to so he doesn't try to stiff you on your last paycheck.... and remove whatever personal effects you may have before you tell him.

Chances are he'll tell you to hit the door immediately after you tell him, knowing his type. If this is the case, you may still be entitled to those 2 weeks... you need to check your contract and the local law. If you don't have an attorney... you may want to consult one.

You'll be much better off at your new job. Congratulations.

BTW... $11/hr in California? Man.... that's criminal considering the cost of living.

Orbity wrote...
As I was reading his response to you, my reccomendation was going to be that you look for a new job, but obviously you already thought of that.
Hmm. My recommendation was going to be much more devious and involved lots of expletives! :eek:

Memnoch1207, congratulations on getting yourself into a much better situation. I'm glad you got a better job so quickly. I'm sure it feels really good! :D

I am glad you will be making in the 40's. Congratulations getting a new job. I think that Court program can done. All you need is a case of Jolt Cola and alot of all-nighters. I know that doesn't sound reasonable, but hey, it can. Anyway, since you are switching jobs, I think you you won't be writing that program, right? So, your next you will make 20 dollars an hour. The average number of hours worked in a year is 2000. So 2000*20 = 40,000.

Originally posted by PharmacyMoon
So, your next you will make 20 dollars an error.

Good grief! I wish I could get paid by the error... I'd retire in a year. :D

Originally posted by reboot


Good grief! I wish I could get paid by the error... I'd retire in a year. :D

LOL, how embaressing. I was typing so fast I meant typed "error" instead of "hour. HEH.

Just to remind you not to burn your bridges. You never know what you may need from your soon-to-be ex-boss.

Originally posted by PharmacyMoon


LOL, how embaressing. I was typing so fast I meant typed "error" instead of "hour. HEH.

Maybe it's the Jolt Cola :-\

Orbity

Originally posted by Robby
Just to remind you not to burn your bridges. You never know what you may need from your soon-to-be ex-boss.

Very true. And I've seen cases where the soon-to-be ex-boss needs something from YOU later... and is willing to pay dearly for it, even though he wouldn't have dreamed of paying you that much when you actually worked for him.

So even though it's often tempting to give in and call him a #$^% son of a &*^&#%$$&, it's really bad business and you should avoid doing it. :)

It's amazing how times change!
I posted this thread 2 1/2 years ago.

Update:
1) The job I was supposed to get start, never happened.

2) When I approached this boss about a raise, he fired me and I had to walk home in the rain (I was using a company car). I had to tell my wife (whom wasn't working because she was taking care of our then 4 month old daughter) that I got fired.

3) I ended up getting a part-time job in a warehouse, while sending out resumes.

4) I eventually landed another job, basically the same pay ($450/week). It sucked, I never got a raise or benefits and the last 3 months the company was bouncing my paychecks.

5) I then ended up getting a some what better job, ($30,000/year) it had medical insurance costing $300/month. The owner of the company was a former Literature professor, who for whatever reason, thought he could run a software development company. He ran it alright...right into the ground.

6) While at the above job, I interviewed with a company for a .NET developer position. It was a great company, full company paid benefits, etc...

I ended up getting the job. So for just over the passed year I have been working for this new company. I make good money now...$50,000, full benefits, 401K, etc... My daughter is now almost 3 years old (she'll be 3 next month) and we are expecting another new baby girl in a week.

Funny how things just always seem to work out!!!

I would still like to physically harm that boss this thread was about. I see him occasionally and I get a certain amount of satisfaction knowing I have moved on to something bigger and better.

Well, I was just about to go into Moderator Mode, until I realized the OP bounced this post :) It's good to hear that everything is going well. Sometimes you have to take a few steps back to go many forward. Nice to see it is all working out. And $50,000/yr in any state outside of NY, NJ or CT is very nice. Congradulations.

I'd say things change! In the same amount of time:
- I made Expert
- I made Leader
- I made moderator here and on the .NET forum
- I retired from both moderator spots
- I got a job in a different state as a programmer (current job) working with a good friend from here
- I became a moderator again
- I gave up my badges (please don't ask!)
- I made about 4,500 posts
- The patriots won another Super Bowl
- The Red Sox won the World Series

oh, and somewhere in there I underwent a name change :p

You were going to change your name again if the Red Sox DIDN'T win the series again :)

What a very positive story, as it turned out, congratulations!

I concur, good for you!

I've known some good people with strong work ethics that still don't hardly get paid for their talents.

It's nice to hear when things work out for the better.

Memnoch1207 congratz good to hear a positive story for a change. Thanks for sharing. :)

I always look for new jobs and people to work for. If I find one I like, I will let them know I am available, and find out what they are willing to pay.

That way, I essentially have a bidding war over my services at any one time.

(It also helps that I am a self-employed contractor, so I work for who I want - this idea might still work in your case, though...)