Any idea to open WPF section here?
Any idea to open WPF section here?
Any idea to open WPF section here?
Any idea to open WPF section here?
Any idea to open WPF section here?
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  #1  
Old 10-13-2010, 08:29 AM
rajeeshun2 rajeeshun2 is offline
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Default Any idea to open WPF section here?


Admins,

As Title says, any idea to open a section for WPF in this forum?

Thanks
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  #2  
Old 10-13-2010, 09:28 AM
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Note I'm not an official staff member, so what I say can be superseded.

I've seen a discussion of opening a WPF-specific forum, but the general decision seemed to be that there doesn't seem to be enough interest in WPF in order to give it a specific forum. I follow the .NET forums very regularly, and I'd estimate we get one WPF thread per month, two in a busy month. It doesn't really make sense to make new forums for a topic that's not going to get that much activity.

For the time being, the appropriate places for WPF/Silverlight topics will likely be .NET General or .NET Interface and Graphics, using your best judgement as to whether it's a more general issue or a UI-specific issue. If WPF-related activity in these forums gets to the point at which it is difficult to distinguish WPF from WinForms topics, I'm certain the forum staff would consider creating a WPF sub-forum.

I'm actively developing in WPF and trying to evangelize its use; don't mistake the lack of a WPF sub-forum for an indication that this forum doesn't take questions about WPF.

(I'm assuming this is because you didn't get a response to the WPF question you asked in Interface and Graphics. I'm very inexperienced with DataGrid controls in both WinForms and WPF, and I don't tend to peek into topics that are obviously about them. I wish I'd looked in yours, because the problem is clear :/)
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Old 09-05-2012, 11:27 AM
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Can we revisit this? I feel like this thread at least shows some "we could try it" support from some members. It's hard for me to do Windows development from home anymore, but if the Surface is any good I might end up in the tutorial mood again and produce a little content. (Mind you that's several months out.)

*edit*
Also this is a gravedig and double-post. I thought about attaching a binary too but figured then I'd just be too much of a rebel. Apology by pony!
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Old 09-05-2012, 02:45 PM
hDC_0Any idea to open WPF section here? hDC_0 is offline
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Default Admins please mark this "action needed!"

Besides Gruff and PlausiblyDamp,
I also want to weigh-in for support the establishment of a specific WPF sub-fourm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtmaWeapon
I've seen a discussion of opening a WPF-specific forum,
but the general decision seemed to be that there doesn't seem to be
enough interest in WPF in order to give it a specific forum.
This is called a "self-fulfilling prophecy".
It's also "cart before this horse" thinking.

It should be noted that if you google search the forum for .net wpf
you get 2,390 results (this indicates WPF is probably not a rarely mentioned topic).

The other "fork" to consider is:
What if WPF doesn't have a "live long and prosper" future.
In that regard I feel the need to reference this 2011 thread:
"Winforms or WPF that is the question?"
I think it's assessment of the future of WPF leans a bit to much toward
the "doom and gloom" side but it does raise some interesting
Microsoft intentions issues.

MasMedia (the owners of the forum) please take note:
The value of your property is based on content.
More content attracts more views and more forum members.

The other day there was a thread that popped up about VB6 and DirectX,
looking for what the forum had to offer in the way of samples, and
the pickings for VB6/DX8/D3D archival working code samples
was pretty thin because most of he bigger projects had to be linked
to off forum during that height of that "era" because of the
severely restrictive forum upload limits then.

If for no other reason that archival purposes it would be really helpful
to have a few well-done (working) examples of what can be done with WPF coding.

There is basically little or nothing specifically WPF-targetted in the forum's Knowledge base.

..and I know AtmaWeapon's hard drive is probably chock full
of first class WPF code waiting to see the light of day.

Can we get an Admin type to at least acknowledge
there was an active consideration (or at least a discussion) of this?

Continually submitting suggestions threads and having no active response
sends the message "we Admin's don't care" and I know they are not
that asleep at the wheel.

Last edited by hDC_0; 09-05-2012 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 09-05-2012, 04:46 PM
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Eh, with respect to WPF's future, I don't think it's as scary as WinForms, and that's not going anywhere for 10+ years.

The short story is while there's been several UI frameworks to come and go over the last few years, XAML has been at the heart of all of them. Sure, WPF/Silverlight/Metro are different dialects, but in a lot of ways it's like having projects that use different sets of 3rd-party WinForms controls.

WPF is MS's answer to, "If I am going to make a desktop app, what should I use?" It should've been the answer consistently since 2009 or so, but they went on a magical journey where they thought Silverlight was the answer for a while. Whatever. Currently, one can get the feeling that maybe MS thinks "desktop app" is a dying breed. I think that's silly and they're going to be around for decades. If you want to subscribe to that theory, yes WPF is going to fade away, but it's going to be replaced by Windows 8 Metro-y things, which still use XAML. So if you pick it up today, you're just a hop, skip, and a jump away from Windows 8 Metro-y stuff.

Anyway, I doubt many WPF posts will have a shelf-life of less than 4 years. There's just not enough of 'em.
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Old 09-05-2012, 07:35 PM
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Microsoft people also do a lot of kool-aid drinking internally and so technologies that we think of as bleeding-edge are often things they've had a 2 or 3 year jump on playing with. This also makes what looks like current tech out here old stuff to them.

If it isn't Office, or Web pages and Metro applets backed by Azure, most of them hardly work with it. When they broke compatibility in ADO with Win7 SP1 their reaction to the uproar was "Gosh, we had no idea anyone wrote desktop applications anymore."

And yes I realize they want to drop the term "Metro" but so far I doubt there is any concise substitute. Speaking of which, another site opened a Metro forum (just before the term became persona non grata) and... well you can hear the crickets chirp in there.


In 2008-2009 you could find WPF fanboys hooting to the skies that it was the present, future, be-all and end-all. You won't find that so much anymore.

Now you are more likely to find things like Six years of WPF; what's changed?

I think WPF has faded to "meh, just another tool" that's out there.

Last edited by dilettante; 09-05-2012 at 09:22 PM.
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  #7  
Old 09-06-2012, 10:33 AM
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I'm just a little angry at that kind of response. You found a guy that wants templates to generate his XAML and assume that means WPF has had no development work in 6 years? Text Templating has been around since VS 2008. We use it extensively. Why should the XAML team waste time reinventing it because the ASP .NET team had to respond to Ruby or die? WPF isn't responding to Ruby. WPF is responding to Cocoa.

Since 2006, WPF has gained many features that first lived in Silverlight. WPF has to update with VS or service packs. That's slow. Silverlight updated rapidly so they could respond to user feedback. Then it turned out a lot of the Silverlight features (VSM is a big one) didn't work so well in WPF because it had better ways to accomplish the same thing. There's the open-source WPF toolkit where features go to be tested before release; DataGrid came from Silverlight to the toolkit to a full-fledged control, as did VSM and Ribbon.

While WPF had new features tested in playgrounds, the engineering teams worked on WinRT, a new version of the CLR that runs on ARM as well as x86/x64. This one can take XAML as its UI, and if you're good with WPF you're a lot closer to writing tablet apps than you will be trying to learn Objective-C and Cocoa Touch. Will some of these features bleed back into WPF? Undoubtably. But most of them can be implemented with what exists in WPF today. The more MS experiments with other frameworks, the more it's apparent that WPF is the good core feature set that can implement them all.

If you consider WPF abandoned and dead, then I don't know what you'd call Windows Forms. Here's what's new in WPF 4.5. WinForms has no new additions. WinForms still seems to lack the Ribbon control, a standard piece of Windows UI available to WPF since late 2010 or so. So which is it, "mature" and worthy of discussion or "just another tool" and candidate for forum deletion?

((I got kind of sidetracked defending WPF there, but if the feeling is there's just no need for a forum then that's different.))
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Last edited by AtmaWeapon; 09-06-2012 at 12:02 PM.
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  #8  
Old 09-06-2012, 06:29 PM
hDC_0Any idea to open WPF section here? hDC_0 is offline
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Default WPF discussion continues..

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtmaWeapon
Anyway, I doubt many WPF posts will have a shelf-life of less than 4 years. There's just not enough of 'em.
I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dilettante
Now you are more likely to find things like Six years of WPF; what's changed?
I think WPF has faded to "eh, just another tool" that's out there.
Thanks for the link dilettante.
Yes it's true that the WPF hype has faded, but the as far as it being "just another tool", one of the issues with WPF is it's
"amorphorious-ness" (yeah its a made up word but let me explain..)

WPF doesn't quite "stand out" (in high relief) as a standalone entity.
It's kind of a "in-betweener" technology.

One can write some really great web apps in ASP.Net but
it's never been "spun" as a way to create super sophisticated
GUIs with complex animation.
For those who have wanted to push the boundaries of what is
possible with graphics, the .Net Framework Drawing2D namespace
has left a lot to be desired. It's good for designing Office-like apps,
but not so much so for games.
XNA has always had more of a Xbox/Xbox360 console orientation than
a desktop or web app orientation.

WPF (it seems to me) fits in the interstitial space left open by
all these other technologies.

The trouble was developers got a hold of it first
(not its intended audience), and played with it for a while and got bored.

It was at that point that Microsoft should have really pushed Blend,
giving it away if necessary to get it into the hands of "real"
people (i.e. those outside of the developer community).

Maybe it should have been aimed
at the graphic designers/Photoshop crowd at that point
but eventually it would have to have been made part of
all the Office software packages (at least in a "Blend lite" version),
so people who do VBA macros could play around with it
and realize its potential uses.

However all that never happened..
I guess it could have been worse -- it could have been
"Pivotized"
That's my word for what happens when something come out of Microsoft R&D
and then ends up "orphaned out" -- by having none of the internal
Microsoft divisions wanting to support it by
robustly integrating with their division's product line.
At last word it got thrown into the Silverlight group who are coming
out with a PivotViewer for SL5..what will happen over time, who knows?

Why do the internal politics of Microsoft fail to
foster and encourage innovation (instead letting new technologies
die a slow fade-to-obscurity "death", due to bureaucratic headwinds)?

Considering how the "stack ranking" system of performance
evaluation resulted in the "Lost Decade" at Microsoft.

Microsoft internal culture difficulties were laid out in a two-part Vanity Fair series
(sub-titled: "Microsoft’s Downfall: Inside the Executive E-mails
and Cannibalistic Culture That Felled a Tech Giant"),
July issue: Part 1
Aug issue: Part 2
Here's a sample quote:
Quote:
..people do everything they can to stay out of the bottom bucket,
one Microsoft engineer said,
People responsible for features will openly sabotage other people’s efforts.
One of the most valuable things I learned
was to give the appearance of being courteous
while withholding just enough information from colleagues
to ensure they didn’t get ahead of me on the rankings.
..but only reading through both parts can fully explain how the ranking system
create a climate of "dis-innovation" through the company.

On to XAML stuff..
I do agree that XAML is somewhat verbose,
but I also agree that Microsoft's "push" for XAML
seems more intent than for WPF (by linking Xaml with WinRT)

However, as that Paul Stovall article mentions, there is Blend (now part of Expression Studio)
which automates a lot of the tedious XAML creation for complex GUIs and animations.

The Paul Stovall article also has many many comments which indicate
that this is a "hot" topic.
A few of the comments indicate the XAML that Blend outputs is not always optimized. I agree.

Once of the exciting things for me with WPF is WPF3D.
However, there simply aren't enough articles on
"Improving 3D performance in WPF" and help to
"Maximize WPF 3D Performance".

This StackOverFlow article article has some interesting responses:
"Is WPF 3D good alternate of DirectX and OpenGL for complex applications?"

That's why I agree that in the near term future (3-4 year time frame)
WPF is not going to go away (even if some want to give it a "legacy" tag).

If nothing else because of the "XAML tag along" effect
that the WPF-XAML linkage provides.

Now that Blend isn't really a standalone product I would like to see
Microsoft fully integrate Blend with VisualStudio.Net,
so instead of choosing "WPF" as a new project template
you would choose "Blend" project template and maybe get the
WPF templates integrated (as sort of "sub-template" options).

Has everyone has had a chance to play around with the
Helix 3D Toolkit by now.

Hopefully (eventually) more sophisticated toolkits come out
that move beyond assisting with rendering and
can handle 3D scene management (collision, real world physics)
as well as character animation movements (IK & Bones
along with providing more sophisticated texture wrapping
animation tweening with runtime mesh deformations).

Note: I've used Flash and Silverlight but neither has gotten as
"sophisticated" in working with 3D objects as some DirectX code.

I'm hoping that WPF starts to feel more "love" from Microsoft
internally and can get a "Directx" hookup --with more
higher level WPF 3D wrappers being developed by the Windows O/S group
which seems to control DirectX now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by =AtmaWeapon
Will some of these features bleed back into WPF? Undoubtedly
I definitely feel that WPF "bleed-back" is still a possibility as well.

Last edited by hDC_0; 09-06-2012 at 08:29 PM.
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  #9  
Old 09-06-2012, 07:13 PM
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Perhaps rather than a WPF section make it a XAML and related technologies section, that way WPF, Silverlight and whatever Metro apps will eventually be called will all be covered.

VS 2012 now actually ships with Blend for Visual Studio, so not integrated but at least included. I think integrating the two would probably be a compromise at best though as Blend really has a different feel and approach to the typical VS way of working.

One of the things I really prefer is the ability to get a cleaner architecture without fighting the built in tools. MVVM and the technologies it is based on (Commanding and Data Binding) make for a cleaner, more maintainable and far more testable application and the benefits far outweigh the learning curve.

Although I personally don't need or really use a lot of the newer graphical features such as transparency and animations as I tend to work on rather uninteresting business systems the whole styles and resources approach gives a much easier system for getting a consistent look and feel within an application without requiring a lot of effort on my part either. That said simple animations and visual effects can really give a rather dull application a bit of a facelift and often gets good end user feedback...

I do tend to agree with Atma on the topic of the right tool for the job though, it pains me to see question after question on topics such as transparency or skinning an app when the tool of choice is Winforms (or VB6 in some cases) because although it can be made to work the effort involved and the numerous edge cases that need addressing feel so unnecessary. If people have existing code bases then unfortunately that is something that needs to be dealt with and switching to XAML is unlikely to be a viable choice; when people are starting new projects using these older technologies and wanting to make them do things that XAML does out of the box then I think encouraging people to at least look at the technology has got to be a good thing.
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Old 09-06-2012, 07:42 PM
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Default XAML sub-forum? ..and thoughts on an integrated blending of Blend with VS.Net

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp
Perhaps rather than a WPF section make it a XAML and related technologies section,
that way WPF, Silverlight and whatever Metro apps will eventually be called will all be covered.
Maybe - but how would AW feel about that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp
MVVM and the technologies it is based on
(Commanding and Data Binding) make for a cleaner,
more maintainable and far more testable application
and the benefits far outweigh the learning curve.
Agree, but why does everyone feel the need to roll their own MVVM framework?
It's more than just coming up with a new MVVM for custom purposes.
I see so much wholesale "re-inventing the wheel" out there
when it comes churning out so many YAMVVM (Yet another MVVM) "clone" frameworks,
(instead of working with..maybe extending..existing frameworks).
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp
That said simple animations and visual effects can really give a rather dull application a bit of a facelift and often gets good end user feedback...
Definitely (wholeheartedly) agree!
Quote:
VS 2012 now actually ships with Blend for Visual Studio, so not integrated but at least included.
I think integrating the two would probably be a compromise at best though
as Blend really has a different feel and approach to the typical VS way of working.
I disagree.
I think the compromise would be minimal,
and has the potential to synergistically enhance both products.

The particular "version" of Blend, adjusted for VS.Net integration,
would have to be more "Xaml obvious"
than the non-developer (Expressions Studio) version.

Instead of "hiding" the XAML output it would/could
feature it as the "main attraction"-- front and center
(in a one-click-away tabbed space)
with built in Intellisense optimization tweaks,
(hopefully a lot better than the way the Intellisense tries to offer
suggestions for correcting errors and
generally fails to make the right call at least 1/2 the time).

The other key adaptation is that the part of Blend
where you lay out the GUI, and setup the animations,
would have to be given more of a VS.Net Designer "feel" instead of
an Expression Studio "feel".

This special "Vs.Net and Blend integrated" IDE look could be limited to
just when using a Blend project template - it wouldn't have
to impact other project template types.

Last edited by hDC_0; 09-06-2012 at 08:10 PM.
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Old 09-07-2012, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Now that Blend isn't really a standalone product I would like to see Microsoft fully integrate Blend with VisualStudio.Net, so instead of choosing "WPF" as a new project template you would choose "Blend" project template and maybe get the WPF templates integrated (as sort of "sub-template" options).
Quote:
VS 2012 now actually ships with Blend for Visual Studio, so not integrated but at least included. I think integrating the two would probably be a compromise at best though as Blend really has a different feel and approach to the typical VS way of working.
VS 2012 has many, many of Blend's features. In fact, both Blend and VS 2012 share the same designer. VS 2010 shared the designer API with Blend, but this time around it's the same code hosting the designer in both programs. The main difference is Blend feels like a tool for making art and VS 2012 feels like a tool for writing code.

People who complain it doesn't generate "optimized" XAML can just keep on counting cycles while their competition releases first. The WinForms designer has never generated the most optimal code; no one's really complained, have they?

Hurry up and play with VS 2012 already! It's been my main dev environment for a couple of weeks

Quote:
Maybe - but how would AW feel about that?
I advocated for it in one of my drafts, and possibly in the thread that made me want to revisit this. I don't really care what we call it as long as it feels like the forum acknowledges there's been something that happened in the last 5 years that might require a new section.

This is off-topic, but relevant:
Quote:
If people have existing code bases then unfortunately that is something that needs to be dealt with and switching to XAML is unlikely to be a viable choice; when people are starting new projects using these older technologies and wanting to make them do things that XAML does out of the box then I think encouraging people to at least look at the technology has got to be a good thing.
This is why I occasionally try to answer a post by driving a member to MVC or another Presentation Model pattern.

The reason it's hard to convert a project has to do with developers' tendency to throw everything in their Form files. So instead of converting database data to business objects that get interpreted as UI, the "business objects" are DataRows, ListViewItems, a tab-separated string, or any number of other crazy constructs because creating a non-form class in your project makes you one of "those guys" and no member of your sex of choice will ever talk to you again.

If, on the other hand, your UI is converting business objects to the UI in a completely separated layer, then you're only faced with figuring out how to make WPF elements behave similarly to WinForms. It can still be daunting, but it's not the same as chasing business logic through child dialogs.

Unfortunately that requires a lot of work in WinForms so it's hard to sell people on it. In WPF, it feels natural.
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Old 09-07-2012, 11:21 AM
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Wouldn't this be more appropriate over at http://www.xtremedotnettalk.com/ though?

I could live with all of the .Net stuff being shifted over there and haven't really ever understood why two sites are maintained if so much non-VB stuff is going to be on this one.

But politics aside, why not just keep same with same? Or to flip the coin, why have the other site if this one is going to duplicate it so much?
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Old 09-07-2012, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
Wouldn't this be more appropriate over at http://www.xtremedotnettalk.com/ though?

I could live with all of the .Net stuff being shifted over there and haven't really ever understood why two sites are maintained if so much non-VB stuff is going to be on this one.

But politics aside, why not just keep same with same? Or to flip the coin, why have the other site if this one is going to duplicate it so much?
That implies that WPF is not usable through VB though...

I personally have no idea why there are two forums, although the sister forum is deathly quiet these days anyway. I always got the feeling Bob planned on keeping this forum for VB6 and earlier and the xtremedotnettalk one for all .Net stuff but I guess that just never happened.
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:00 PM
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Default Re: The DotNet Sister forum and WPF patterns..

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp
I personally have no idea why there are two forums,
although the sister forum is deathly quiet these days anyway.
I agree --quiet as a graveyard.
And I think PlausiblyDamp is a pretty good judge of this
because PD posts over in the dot net sister forum semi-regularly
whereas I don't think dilettante posts over there at all,
(at least not under the dot net forum user name "dilettante").
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtmaWeapon
The reason it's hard to convert a project has to do with developers' tendency to throw everything in their Form files.
If, on the other hand, your UI is converting business objects
to the UI in a completely separated layer,
then you're only faced with figuring out how to make WPF elements
behave similarly to WinForms. It can still be daunting,
but it's not the same as chasing business logic through child dialogs.
Unfortunately that requires a lot of work in WinForms so it's hard to sell people on it. In WPF, it feels natural.
I agree..and maybe that's why having VB (Winforms) developers get a little more taste
of WPF would make then more "aware" of the Presentation Model pattern and how it relates to other patterns.
Quote:
..it feels like the forum acknowledges there's been something that happened in the last 5 years that might require a new section.
I would be happy if some forum member with the rank of Admin
would even recognize that people still post threads in the suggestion forum.
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Old 09-08-2012, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp View Post
That implies that WPF is not usable through VB though...

I personally have no idea why there are two forums, although the sister forum is deathly quiet these days anyway. I always got the feeling Bob planned on keeping this forum for VB6 and earlier and the xtremedotnettalk one for all .Net stuff but I guess that just never happened.
Exactly correct.

If I hadn't sold due to health reasons this site by now would be an archive. Everything would have been shifted to the .Net site.

I really don't think it is too late to accomplish that now. It's all up to the new owner to decide to do it or not.
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  #16  
Old 09-25-2012, 08:41 AM
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AtmaWeaponAny idea to open WPF section here? AtmaWeapon is offline
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Well I've seen all I need to see to determine if I should invest any effort into WPF tutorials for this forum. (Spoiler: no.)
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Old 09-25-2012, 05:54 PM
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snarfblamAny idea to open WPF section here? snarfblam is offline
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Is it just me, or weren't the liaisons for the new owners asking us for our ideas on how to revitalize the forums not that long ago? Well... Here's an easy one!
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Any idea to open WPF section here?
Any idea to open WPF section here?
Any idea to open WPF section here? Any idea to open WPF section here?
Any idea to open WPF section here?
Any idea to open WPF section here?
Any idea to open WPF section here? Any idea to open WPF section here? Any idea to open WPF section here? Any idea to open WPF section here? Any idea to open WPF section here? Any idea to open WPF section here? Any idea to open WPF section here?
Any idea to open WPF section here?
Any idea to open WPF section here?
 
Any idea to open WPF section here?
Any idea to open WPF section here?
 
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