Legacy VB is... legacy :(
Legacy VB is... legacy :(
Legacy VB is... legacy :(
Legacy VB is... legacy :(
Legacy VB is... legacy :(
Legacy VB is... legacy :( Legacy VB is... legacy :( Legacy VB is... legacy :( Legacy VB is... legacy :( Legacy VB is... legacy :( Legacy VB is... legacy :( Legacy VB is... legacy :( Legacy VB is... legacy :(
Legacy VB is... legacy :( Legacy VB is... legacy :(
Legacy VB is... legacy :(
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Old 05-26-2012, 10:47 PM
meggy_e meggy_e is offline
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Default Legacy VB is... legacy :(


It's so sad seeing that legacy VB is now so legacy. Hardly see any new post, and people seems to move on with the newer languages & IDEs. On the hard side, i feel exiled from community, as i stand hard and stand still, and hope legacy VB won't be legacy, or maybe revive the greatness of this legacy just like when it was first release (yeah, keep dreaming... lol)

Anyway, it's just so sad, and i feel so much lonely with only few people left still using VB6. It was fun reading what others post, follow their problem and see the solution. Maybe i'll learn .NET before it turns into another legacy o.O
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Old 05-26-2012, 11:15 PM
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Microsoft's working hard to make .NET legacy. The next version's called "Cocoa" and you write it on these weird PCs with fruit on them.
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Old 05-26-2012, 11:19 PM
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VB6 is alive and very active at other sites. This one just lost out in during the current "down" economy as programming activity has contracted with the job market.

The biggest change for Classic VB is that many serious players have left for greener pastures, leaving a plethora of newcomers and ne'er-do-wells asking the same simple questions about things clearly spelled out in the documentation.
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Old 05-26-2012, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtmaWeapon View Post
Microsoft's working hard to make .NET legacy. The next version's called "Cocoa" and you write it on these weird PCs with fruit on them.
Heh.

♫ To Every Season, ...
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  #5  
Old 05-27-2012, 01:15 AM
hDC_0Legacy VB is... legacy :( hDC_0 is offline
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Default The legacy continues..diminished, but not snuffed out of existence..

Quote:
Originally Posted by dilettante
VB6 is alive and very active at other sites.
Alive?..yes
"Very active"..not so much so as in the past.
Quote:
This one just lost out in during the current "down" economy as programming activity has contracted with the job market.
Too true. But there are still thousands of programmers who continue to maintain the millions of lines of VB6 code still in use.
Despite all Microsoft's attempt's to kill the most successful programming environment it ever created, the long tail still keeps on going..
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  #6  
Old 05-27-2012, 09:42 AM
meggy_e meggy_e is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtmaWeapon View Post
Microsoft's working hard to make .NET legacy. The next version's called "Cocoa" and you write it on these weird PCs with fruit on them.
****, that will make life harder for my daughter if i ever teach her VB 6, more harder for me to "catch up" things and pass the knowledge, my bald spot will grow bigger soon.

It's good to see old members still active here, doesn't see much post by ones i knew back when i was still active here . Just remembered the past and think i want to check how things are doing
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  #7  
Old 05-27-2012, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
my bald spot will grow bigger soon
Funny, my hair spot is growing smaller.

I still have many VB6 and VBA apps to maintain, however anything new I try to write in VB.NET.

Besides all the usual PRO VB.NET arguments I think of it as a way to keep my aging mind flexible and able to learn new things.

I tried to teach my children to embrace change. Hopefull it stuck.
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  #8  
Old 05-27-2012, 12:59 PM
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I'm really confused by your statement, but it's something you can correct.

Don't lament, "Woe! It is useless to teach my daughter VB6!" Think of the craftsman analogy. Carpenters don't decide, "I want to be a hammer man, I am going to study hammers and get a job using a hammer." No, they learn how to use a variety of tools and use them all together. Carpentry is a set of concepts and the tools provide a variety of ways to get there.

Programming's that way too. There's not one way to write a given program, and you can often write it in any language.

In a way, yes. The worst thing you can do is teach your daughter VB6. If you teach her, "the way to be a programmer is learn one language and only ever use that", you will do her a disservice. If, instead, you teach her how to tackle problems using VB6 as the tool while helping her understand that other programming languages are similar tools, you will have done right. Don't make her a VB6 programmer. Make her a programmer that uses VB6.

30 years ago C, COBOL, and FORTRAN were the superstars. Maybe others, I don't know, that was before my time. 15 years ago it was Java, C++, and PHP. Now it's C#, Ruby, Python, Java, and Javascript. It's foolish to expect this field to stay constant.
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  #9  
Old 05-28-2012, 08:58 PM
meggy_e meggy_e is offline
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Yeah, i got what you mean there, but i'm coding for hobby and for my own purpose (to manage my store, currently trying to cope with remote mysql access to link branches), my daughter is currently 4 months old, and i've prepared lots of things for he like cooking, knit, making plane model (the one from www.rubber-power.com),and many more random stuff. Basically making future brighter for her with extra random skills, as i don't have much cash to be proud of.
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  #10  
Old 05-29-2012, 07:07 PM
BrandonDoyle BrandonDoyle is offline
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Default VB6 Is Still Alive And Well

I use VB6 and have made many thousands of dollars selling my software.

I also work for a Fortune 500 and one of the modules in a large Enterprise Desktop app I support is written in VB6.

VB6 is a tool. Like one of the previous posters said, they're are many different layers and tools of a programmer. VB6 shouldn't be your only tool. But, I will continue to use it until Microsoft kills it dead. : )
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  #11  
Old 06-01-2012, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtmaWeapon View Post
30 years ago C, COBOL, and FORTRAN were the superstars. Maybe others, I don't know, that was before my time. 15 years ago it was Java, C++, and PHP. Now it's C#, Ruby, Python, Java, and Javascript. It's foolish to expect this field to stay constant.
COBOL might be in the rise again. People associated with maintaining the COBOL based code are retiring and this freaks out the financial industry since for most of them the cost will be great.

Maybe I should put my hands into COBOL. It might also look good if not awesome in my resume
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  #12  
Old 06-01-2012, 09:04 PM
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Yeah but there's tradeoffs.

RPG is another one of those mainframe languages and it's all over businesses. When I worked at a big car parts manufacturer, they had 3 or 4 AS/400s and most of their business logic ran on RPG on those things. All of the programmers were grey hairs/balding, and it wasn't hard to figure out that in about 10 years the company was going to be desperate for new experts.

BUT. At that place, there were daily meetings to discuss the massive changes to the requirements. Sometimes an entire week's worth of stuff had to be rewritten on a whim. Then restored days later when they changed their mind again. Everyone worked 10+ hours of overtime weekly. Every release was always late, which led to 20+ hours a week. I had a 96 hour week as an intern one time.

They paid really well, but it taught me a lot about what to run screaming from.
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  #13  
Old 06-02-2012, 07:57 AM
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Cobol and RPG were in some respects optimized (or designed for) a different problem domain than most other languages. Both of them need good successor languages (or one to replace both) but I don't think we'll ever see them.

The workplace hazards described above exist independent of the tools though.

Most systems with long lifetimes have painful ongoing requirements changes. This is where the term "maintenance" actually came from, bug fixing was really only secondary since (you hoped) you didn't have tons of bugs that only crop up after a series of production cycles. Of course the reality is any bug can result in painful after-remedies including data repair.

The clever wags who say BS like "How can a program wear out?" are showing their lack of real experience.
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Old 06-02-2012, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilettante View Post
Cobol and RPG were in some respects optimized (or designed for) a different problem domain than most other languages. Both of them need good successor languages (or one to replace both) but I don't think we'll ever see them.
In my opinion, the problem is not finding a good successor language but poor planning in terms of getting ready for the future and embracing the change.

More clearly, what I am trying to say is if you wait until you lose all your human assets that are the experts on your systems, then you should freak out. When all these people are gone, the replacements that suppose to modernize your systems must now understand the already existing code base which was once all known to your developer who happened to be retired or retiring.

For me it is all about timing. If you initiate the change when you have the experts already in house, the change will be less painful.
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Old 06-02-2012, 08:54 AM
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No, there is a real problem with alternative languages, they simply don't map well onto the problem space.

Systems based on batch processing large files comprised of mixed record types, ISAM files, and the hierarchical databases that naturally followed plain and simply fit the business data processing model far better than systems based on managed code and relational databases. As these systems moved online none of that really changed. They key point is that most of these "business systems" are about processing transactions.

And that's what Cobol and RPG were designed for: chunking through and processing transactions in an expeditious manner.


As I mentioned above, even one of the biggest players in the outsourcing field has struggled (and failed) for eight years trying to build a .Net replacement system.

While you can't lay all of the blame on their tools, "typical practice" using their chosen tools has doomed them to inappropriate models of the problem space and ineffective architectures. The problems that do truly stem from the tools relate to performance and cost:
  • What they've put together is so slow it would take 15 days just to handle one day's batch processing alone.
  • It is already using hardware that costs 75% what the mainframe costs, and can't cope with relatively miniscule testing workloads!
There are more big gotchas as well.

And by the way, the "experts" are still in the house, handling their normal workload as well as babysitting these contractors for the last eight years.

The only viable contenders they could choose for this today are .Net languages or Java and an RDBMS. Pretty much everything else is hard to take seriously. However they're a poor fit for the requirements, which is why things like Cobol, RPG, and mainframes live on.


I actually think there is a solution, a solution using .Net, but it will require some hard work and a radical paradigm shift that people who design and implement typical .Net applications are unfamiliar with. "Hello World" simply doesn't scale.
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Old 06-02-2012, 08:55 AM
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Old 06-02-2012, 10:11 PM
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Default Microsoft to hobbyist programmers : Your assistance is no longer required..

Nice June 2012 link, dilettante!

I like the part at the end:
Quote:
But the rapid (and therefore cheaper) development of limited (and therefore cheaper) applications
by lower-skilled (and therefore cheaper) personnel
is an important solution to a very large class of problems.
The things that Visual Basic 6 did still need doing.
Until and unless Microsoft brings out another tool that does these things,
Visual Basic 6 will keep scuttling around.
I’ll bet you a beer that Microsoft has to extend Visual Basic 6 support through Windows 9 and 10.
The whole "get simple programming tasks done quickly and cheaply" mindset seems lost
on the developers (and marketers) of .Net.

The number of professional programmers in the world will always be limited
and any RAD development tool that allows "hobbyists" to help with
the programming workload is needed and should always be welcome.

Microsoft has shot itself in the foot too many times in recent years by setting up
barriers to entry for hobbyist programmers.

There used to be a "standard" version of VisualStudio.net (one step up from the Express editions but below the Professional Edition).
The reason not many Standard editions got sold
(and it eventually got discontinued due to too small market share)
was, I believe, for two reasons:
1.) The price of a standard edition was just too high - it should have been in the $49.99 to $79.99 range not hundreds of dollars.
2.) They should have had a an academic book + standard edition vs.net software "kit"
for around $99.00 (or slightly cheaper per kit pricing for
school programs which could buy in quantities).

What about game developers?
To do do any sort of XNA development for Xbox you had to not
only pony up for an Xbox live subscription but pay again for a
creators club membership.

Now the same thing is happening again with requiring an AppHub membership
to program for the Windows phone (see this thread on the dotnet sister forum)
--even if you only want to develop for your own personal Nokia Lumia phone!

How many apps does the Apple Apple have?
How many apps are already available via the Android Apps site?
Both are far ahead of Microsoft in terms of mobile device market share and number of apps available
and yet Microsoft expects to "catch up" by imposing barriers for prospective app developers..

The money to be made by Microsoft should be on the backend--
off a percentage of profits for Windows phone apps developed and sold.

Professional developers are all over Apple and Android Apps,
but what's the incentive to develop for an app space
that is still so nascent like that of Windows Phone AppHub?

Hobbyist programmers are the leading edge for trying out development in
not-ready-for-profit-taking spaces. Microsoft should be courting them
as much as possible to gain "mindshare" (if not outright increase the
interest in Windows phone and "ugly blocks" metro UI development).

Considering the news that VS 11 Express edition won't let you develop desktop apps,
I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Last edited by hDC_0; 06-02-2012 at 10:30 PM.
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Old 06-03-2012, 05:40 PM
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I've written and deleted-w/o-posting replies to this 3 times now. We've touched a nerve that causes me greater concern month by month.


VB in all forms has borne the brunt of disparagement for a long time now. Its case has never been helped by the amount of... er, non-professional practitioners it attracts. But VB6 in particular seems to have become a ghetto of sorts almost bad enough now to drive me away - out of embarrassment to be associated with the current community.

The amount of cargo-culting accepted as normal practice and insistance that "echo chamber" misinformation is fact has risen to alarming levels. It is so bad that attempts to correct any of this Lord of the Flies theology is apt to trigger bizarre flame wars.

Much of this seems to stem from the democratizing (in the worst sense) effect of the Internet rather than simply the exodus of professionals from VB6 to other pastures. "Correct" practice is now determined by mob rule rather than education and experience - or even a finger pointed directly at the documentation along with working examples of code to prove the point. Twelve ignorant monkeys simply hoot louder than two literate ones.


The difference between a professional and a hobbyist lies along an entirely different axis than the difference between the accomplished and the hack. One can be a vey accomplished hobbyist or an incredibly lousy professional programmer.


I suspect that a similar dynamic may be involved in the tension between VB.Net and C# advocates.


At this point the only reason I still use VB6 as much as I do is that I keep finding opportunities to make money doing so. But that's a different theological arena.
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Old 06-04-2012, 10:52 AM
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There's definitely a niche for "tiny" programs; the kind of thing that most of us could bang out in less than a week and spend 2-3 hours of maintenance monthly. There's also a niche for the larger applications where spending less than a month on planning is guaranteed failure. The developers and even the programming language used for either are very different.

Skipping several points you've already heard, I think tragedy happens when someone is hired to be the "tiny" programmer and that turns out to be all they're qualified for. They spend their 2 months, then suddenly you've got an employee on payroll that has nothing to do for 29 days a month. But hey, there's this bigger project over here you were thinking of hiring for... maybe this guy could take a crack at it.

Sometimes that dev surprises you and handles the larger program well. But other times he produces the mess that keeps costing your department money. All the design patterns we make fun of have a place and when used by skilled developers they are the grease that keeps the gears of complex machines running smooth. To use them well, you have to use them poorly to understand when you're making your hole too deep.

That's the dilemma to me. The bottom feeders should never get hired, but it's difficult to tell them from the cream of the crop at a glance. It takes a month or two of watching them attack medium-sized problems to understand their talent, and sometimes a talented person lacks only experience. This isn't a VB6 vs. C# war because atrocities are committed with either tool. We're more than 50 years into our craft and we're still not sure how to tell if someone's worth hiring. I've seen it said that every bad developer creates 2 jobs and I tend to agree.

I don't know how we solve it, but I don't think programming languages are the tool that will do it. We need a VB6 for the small jobs as much as we need the enterprisey parts of C# for the big ones. What we lack is a yardstick to tell us who can pick which level of architecture astronomy to use when. But we're not getting much of a choice from the tools standpoint. :/
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Old 06-04-2012, 12:47 PM
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I think you missed the boat there.

The sorts of VB6 projects I get brought in on lately are fairly large. Most of the code is actually middle-tier on a server using DCOM/COM+, MSMQ, HTTP, or an ad-hoc protocol over TCP or Named Pipes. There are almost always a large number of these "business logic" layer DLLs, with the front end presentation tier being VB6/VB.Net/C# or ASP/ASP.Net. The back end can be SQL Server, Oracle, a mainframe system, or a cloud service.

So I don't think the idea that VB6 is just "the small stuff" has much traction in reality. If anything the .Net stuff I see is the fairly lightweight stuff at the presentation level. Most of that is historical of course, since these are generally very long-lived systems dating back quite a way.


Or perhaps you were talking about VB6 and new development? I could see the point then.

The pool of serious VB6 talent seems to be dwindling at a rapid pace. Just look at the sorts of questions and topics here and elsewhere. The VB6 stuff is almost entirely written as if they were using QBasic: fear and loathing of data bound UIs, no use of DCOM except to automate an Office Suite application here and there, no concept of MSMQ, COM+, foreign-system interoperation... the list goes on and on.

Maybe 50% is hackish web-scraping exploits and another 30% "can you help me FTP from a VB6 program to my free web host" for Gourd Knows what reason.

But this seems really common no matter what they're coding in: C++, VB6, C#, PHP, JavaScript... standards are low all over. They probably always have been and always will be. I just think VB6 has developed a particularly serious case of it, largely due to its dwindling status.


As a former hiring manager in a previous life I learned one thing all too late: make sure the employee contract has a 3 to 6 month probationary period, and use it. If they can't cut the mustard in 6 months you aren't helping anybody by letting things slide. Odds are good they'll never improve, and you have a tougher case to make to get rid of them once you approve their probationary performance.
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Legacy VB is... legacy :(
Legacy VB is... legacy :(
Legacy VB is... legacy :( Legacy VB is... legacy :(
Legacy VB is... legacy :(
Legacy VB is... legacy :(
Legacy VB is... legacy :( Legacy VB is... legacy :( Legacy VB is... legacy :( Legacy VB is... legacy :( Legacy VB is... legacy :( Legacy VB is... legacy :( Legacy VB is... legacy :(
Legacy VB is... legacy :(
Legacy VB is... legacy :(
 
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