VB6 vs. VB.net
VB6 vs. VB.net
VB6 vs. VB.net
VB6 vs. VB.net
VB6 vs. VB.net
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  #1  
Old 09-04-2013, 02:57 PM
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Default VB6 vs. VB.net


As old dogs (51) still may learn new tricks, I rather do old school VB6 Access db-manipulation vs. .Net

Ques:

What's preventing me from using VB6 for the next couple of years (coding,P&D,setup)?

Will it be:

Win7?
Win8?
Losing XP support

Some of the comp's still run on XP, some run Win7, updates in near future are not likely due to licensing 60 of them...

What's your vision towards Legacy VB and it's lifespan?

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  #2  
Old 09-09-2013, 10:38 AM
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I suspect that there is a good reason why Microsoft is preparing to announce a set of second generation "Surface" products even after claiming $900 billion of losses on the first products. They have no choice, the markets have moved away from the old PC model of computing.

This probably means that by the time we see a Windows 9 (whatever it may be called on release) the older Win32 "desktop" world will be further deemphasized.

For people still writing and using either client programs or stand alone programs in VB6 today this could effectively be the end. .Net programmers are in the same boat regarding a lot of "current" client technologies. But you can expect .Net and Visual Studio to be extended further with new versions to accomodate the WinRT world better and better... and to follow its changes forward in time.

On the server side things are rosier for everyone, at least for a while. But most programmers using VB6 will rarely write server-side code anyway. Even at the server things like Azure are bringing change. While .Net will continue to move with those changes VB6 has only a dwindling role.


If you are still using XP or have only recently moved to current Windows versions things may still appear lively, but you are living in the rubble of a past civilization. While you can still write and deploy VB6 programs to Windows 8 and with a few gyrations even still develop in VB6 on Win8 it is hard to ignore the approaching end.

Expect forums catering to VB6 community support to become ghost towns as people either grasp the .Nettle or move to more popular and open platforms.
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Old 09-09-2013, 11:51 AM
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Basically what dilettante said, and I'm not blowing a trumpet of victory here. This was a really interesting discussion about 5 years ago and now it looks a lot more grim. Now everyone's losing.

MS seems very interested in ending the traditional desktop metaphor, or at least shoving it into a niche. I've been a .NET guy all my life but it's been changing so fast the last couple of years I've had to give up on trying to stay current; I can't use the most current stuff at my job anyway. The Microsoft vision, of course, is one that leaves you paying them for the entirety of your platform, but there's ORMs and database solutions for the WinRT world that don't necessarily include Azure.

If you're functional with VB6 right now, working on Windows XP, and not planning on some major infrastructure upgrade like "Move every computer to Windows 8.1 and throw away all the old hardware", I'd say sit and wait for the .NET smoke to settle for a year or two. But keep your eye on it.

If you're already planning on a major infrastructure upgrade, you can make VB6 work but it's not going to get easier. But it doesn't feel like there's guarantees you won't be experiencing churn in .NET, either. I don't know, maybe I'm cranky that they've killed my platform at least twice in the past 3 years.

I don't know what's going to happen; it doesn't seem like the WinRT side of the equation really addresses the needs of my customers and they represent a large chunk of the economy if not Microsoft's revenue. But so do consumers. But it's not like the need for enterprise will go away. So who knows?

I'm keeping my mind open right now and thinking of dabbling with a variety of things: Ruby, Rails, iOS, etc.
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Old 09-09-2013, 01:13 PM
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Odd ball things are coming down the pike for sure.

Recently bought MS Office 365.
(Hideously poor product.) First thing I found was that the data drivers and engine always included with Office is not included with 365. The Office products have their own internal set of tools, but they are not available for third party use.

There were no options to install only what you wanted. It was everything or nothing.
As we no longer use exchange 365 Outlook complained continuously that it was not made the default email program. No way to turn it off that I could see.

For this they want a never ending monthly fee? Uninstalled and tossed the product.

I couldn't find anywhere to send MS feedback on the topic.
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Old 09-09-2013, 02:35 PM
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Will Microsoft's developers make the WinRT platform leap? Look at the Forrester chart labeled Figure 3, the comments in the article, and the discussion below that.

Even if you're skeptical about comments from those paid brain trusts, Microsoft's actions support most of those claims. There is a definate trend toward thinner clients more dependent than ever on "mother ship" services. That might be where everyone ends up: putting lots of effort into the centralized service and supporting several different thin clients as front-ends, farmed out to be built on the cheap.

This addresses developers in the mass market and the enterprise but makes a mess for the small ISV and shareware guys, in-house RAD developer, and the hobbyist. It also leaves a lot of home and small office users with fewer choices and puts them into the online software rental game.
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  #6  
Old 09-09-2013, 03:15 PM
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I can't even tell what this means or where it might lead:

Microsoft is pushing to move its internal software development to the cloud

Commenters there may be misreading the entire thing. This may be about the meta-development (ALM, etc.) tools rather than IDEs and compilers and such.

An alarmist might suggest future VS Express editions will disappear to be replaced by some online service. I doubt that, but VS and such were the rocks many were hanging the desktop's future on once Office started to morph into a cloud-based rental service instead of a stand alone product.
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Old 09-11-2013, 07:13 AM
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Some of it makes sense, but some of it is bonkers.

On the consumer end, you'd have to be consciously ignoring tech trends to not see people moving towards thin clients and cloud services. It's lipstick on the terminal/mainframe model. But that model worked when minor improvements in PC performance were major investments and we've been there for years. Anyway, that's a different discussion. I see Microsoft moving to try and fit into this future and retooling dang near everything to fit in it.

But that leaves me wondering who serves the enterprise customer. It is a big market segment, but shareholders want MS to get that tasty consumer market AND the enterprise. I don't see how they're going to do that if they continue focusing on WinRT. They'll have to open the sandbox. My customers buy millions of Windows licenses and write software that has to have intimate communications with all manner of T&M hardware. You can't do that from Metro.

So I'm curious. Is someone going to disrupt Microsoft at enterprise? That'd be so ironic I'm pretty sure we might actually see it.
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  #8  
Old 09-11-2013, 06:32 PM
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I think it depends on who you think "the enterprise" is.

As far as I can tell all of the big vendors view the enterprise as strictly the core business operations of a larger organization. The folks who write and support software that makes that happen are almost entirely focused on server-side code and don't particularly care about client technology as long as it stays out of their hair.

To them these servers have basically become a replacement for the mainframe.

PCs, tablets, etc. are little more than replacements for the terminals of yore. They don't really care what runs there as long as it can interoperate with the server and meet all of the I/O requirements. So often a browser is just fine, which is why web-based front-ends continue to be popular. That's also one "terminal" that can be public-facing when appropriate since the security issues are well understood at this point.

Sometimes a richer client makes sense. You might need to handle sensors, local printers, or other I/O devices like document scanners and mag stripe or bar code readers. Or bandwidth might be an issue making bulky web pages less practical than something installed on the client.


Then you have a lot of activities going on under the radar within an "enterprise." This can range from helpful applications created for in-house use in a part of the organization to fairly expensive systems of a scale that would dwarf anything in a small business, but still aren't core to the enterprise at all. This is often where vendors sneak systems in the back door to do document mangement, perform accounting functions, automate mailroom operations, conduct shopfloor Q/A, ... a long list of things.

These are not enterprise software systems at all. I'm not sure what the formal label is for them as a category, but they're viewed more as administrative support rather than core to the business. All of MS Office for example falls in this category.

It isn't that one is more important than the other, but these non-core applications are where the "hurt" is coming.


So I suspect that's what Microsoft is thinking when it comes to the enterprise. There is a big chunk of computing they don't dare tamper with (centralized core operations) and then a ton of "smaller" stuff that will just have to follow Microsoft's wagging tail.
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  #9  
Old 09-14-2013, 12:28 AM
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Even scarier:

Let the Windows 9 and 10 rumors begin

Quote:
An anonymous Russian user named WZOR, who has a pretty long track record of Windows leaks that are more on the money than off, said Windows 9 will be released next year. There won't be significant changes beyond bringing back the Aero UI, "but not in quite the usual way," he wrote. He did not elaborate.

He described Windows 10 as a "cloud Relevant Products/Services OS," which means that Microsoft would handle the computing on its servers and your computer would simply receive the information from Microsoft's servers.

WZOR did say that his information came from a third party, so we should all take that information with a grain of salt.
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Old 09-18-2013, 07:25 AM
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Old 09-18-2013, 10:27 AM
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I can certainly see his point regarding windows development at the moment. There doesn't appear to be a clear plan, technologies ar ebeing created, tweaked and ditched every few years and even .Net seems to be getting downplayed in favour of Javascript and HTML 5.
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Old 09-18-2013, 10:43 AM
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It seems that betting on thin client-server models is a bet on the safe side.
No one seems to be able to predict whether desktop solutions are going to exist in the (near) feature. Clients don't (want to) see the difference between tablets and desktops.
It's just a screen to an user interface, and they are correct.
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Old 09-19-2013, 07:21 AM
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I believe a lot of new architectural patterns will become necessary in order to better deal with the "facts of life" in application environments like WinRT, Android, iOS, or whatever.

Dumb "super thin" client-server (e.g. browser based) is an easy alternative but even with a lot of HTML5 goodies there are limits to the quality of the result and you sacrifice disconnected operation.

.Net offers a few things like the SyncFramework, but that is platform-bound and isn't even mature on WinRT yet - though with a little work it can be used, see:

Synchronization with SQLite on WinRT


The problem I see is that these technologies are still a bit of a leap for poor old Mort LOB who writes a few desktop apps to supplement his MS Access apps and Excel macros. This may change as the tooling gets better, i.e. some higher level "appliance" components to handle things like sync and store-and-forward in a generic fashion. The SyncFramework may still be too low-level a tool right now.

In the meantime it is very hard to find anywhere online that even tries to discuss these topics from a high level overview up to basic practical implementation advice and examples. LOB developers need to find a train moving slowly enough to clamber aboard.


When you add in multiple client platforms things really get interesting. At that point you're back to the low level cloud platform APIs and rolling your own "appliance" from dirt to plug into applications.

Right now most popular programming forum sites are still very client-centric. This can make it really tough to try to have a conversation about the changes that are upon us today. It served us well enough when most applications were serverless or thin-server (just a DBMS) but it seems less relevant now.
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Old 09-19-2013, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlausiblyDamp View Post
I can certainly see his point regarding windows development at the moment. There doesn't appear to be a clear plan, technologies ar ebeing created, tweaked and ditched every few years and even .Net seems to be getting downplayed in favour of Javascript and HTML 5.
Rockford Lhotka would seem to agree. He did however pick up on the "h5js" problem that no common offline app container/deployment model for it exists yet.
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Old 09-19-2013, 01:11 PM
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I keep wanting to rant, but Lhotka kind of encapsulated how I feel.

I imagine the emergence of the PC probably caused this kind of change back in the old days, and if COBOL and FORTRAN programmers had forums to yak on this is the kind of discussion they'd have on them. They didn't disappear, but that market is now served by "non-growth" arms of giant megacorps. Maybe that's one of Microsoft's plans for desktop developers: keep some legacy Windows around that's just stable enough to let enterprises run it forever.

Either way, the eye of Microsoft is firmly on tablets and more mobile devices, and you can't blame them looking at sales charts. But those platforms are immature and if you take a look at the UI churn between Android and the recent new iOS you can see even the major vendors aren't sure they've landed on the right paradigm yet.

Long after COM arrived, .NET showed up and promised to be the next big thing. The world evolved, and now MS is betting that WinRT is the next big thing. My opinion is by the time MS figures out what WinRT /should/ be, something else will be the next big thing.

Either way I'm keeping my mind open. Dabbling in Objective-C. I know a little HTML/JS. What happens tomorrow will be similar to what we have today. No harm in being ready.
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Old 09-19-2013, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtmaWeapon View Post
Either way I'm keeping my mind open. Dabbling in Objective-C. I know a little HTML/JS. What happens tomorrow will be similar to what we have today. No harm in being ready.
It always pays to keep an open mind in this industry; technologies come and go, sometimes never quite arriving fully, that only learning one technology or tool can quickly leave you out in the cold.

My experiences of WinRT as a development platform are somewhat mixed - I really like the idea of Charms and Contracts - makes integrating things so much easier and natural. Actually developing for WinRT though feels like such a step back from .Net - the restrictions on generics are taking us back to pre 2005 days (more or less) and the restrictions on inheritance are taking us all the way back to COM (which is understandable as that is all WinRT is behind the scenes)

It just feels like the past 10 years on innovation and progress have been thrown away to accommodate Javascript in the WinRT world regardless of what impact this has.

I find it amazing that a 3rd party company (www.xamarin.com) seems to have more faith in .Net than Microsoft do, luckily they seem to be doing a really good job of backing up their faith. Microsoft can't even get the full .Net runtime supported for WinRT on a full windows desktop running an x64 or x86 processor - they manage to get the full .Net framework (minus some specific windows functionality) working on Windows, Mac, iOS and Android.

I can't see my current love of C# and .Net in general diminishing soon, my feelings to windows as a platform however are distinctly lukewarm these days. I no longer really care about the new releases of windows as they are not offering anything new that appeals and in some cases actively removing features (why anyone thought a full screen PDF reader was a good plan is beyond me) or restricting functionality.
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Old 09-19-2013, 06:46 PM
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Lhotka seems to hold out hope that WinRT will have evolved into something more usable by the time business needs to adopt post-Win7 Windows.

That seems judicious (giving WinRT time to mature) however it feels like it could lead to a "mad dash" down the road for developers to get up to speed overnight.
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Old 09-28-2013, 09:20 PM
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Exclamation I almost missed this thread..

I read through dilettante's answer in the second post and I thought he effectively answered the original poster's question.
So I thought the thread was effectively done, but it has turned into an interesting discussion on "Where is Microsoft going for developers.."
--which is a far more interesting question.

But just to try answer this question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruff
I couldn't find anywhere to send MS feedback on the topic.
Here's a link for the old Windows Feedback Program:
(which notes "The Windows Feedback program is by invitation only.")
http://wfp.microsoft.com/

You'll see it's a bit different from this old "Providing Feedback to Microsoft" Sept 2006 page:
http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/execmail/feedback.mspx

One of the links (under "More Ways to Send Feedback" paragraph of that page is to Microsoft's anonymous "Survey" page (choose "Other, please specify..." at the bottom I guess):
http://support.microsoft.com/common/...cid=sw;en;1076

Note to Gruff:
I agree with everything you said about Office 365,
but with the ridiculous per license prices for even the student edition of MsOffice,
the suggestion to use that "cloud" version of MsOffice keeps coming up frequently with many of my clients.
I usually steer them to the Window's versions of OpenOffice or LibreOffice for WinXP or Win7 desktops.

Absolute no one I know is using Windows 8.
Some have switched to using laptops instead of desktop computers,
but without paying more for a laptop equipped with a touchscreen Win8 loses most of it's worth as an upgrade interest.

So is Microsoft's strategy for Surface:
If the Surface1 RT model is not selling at $349.00 then make minor changes,
viciously jack up the price (of almost the same RT model computer),
then expect Surface2 RT to sell like hotcakes?


One of my clients bought a whole bunch of OEM copies of Windows 7 Pro (which has domain support) from Fry's when they were being closed out.
Enough to last a decade of WinXp computer system upgrades.
He'll probably (eventually) switch to ASUS tablets with a suite of MsOffice clones my team is developing for Android.
Right now they are testing with Google's QuickOffice and not holding there breath waiting for a special MsOffice version customized for Androids to come out.

Last edited by hDC_0; 09-28-2013 at 09:52 PM.
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Old 09-29-2013, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hDC_0 View Post
One of my clients bought a whole bunch of OEM copies of Windows 7 Pro (which has domain support) from Fry's when they were being closed out.
Enough to last a decade of WinXp computer system upgrades.
This seems like a clever idea until you run into a hardware combination that lacks the necessary driver support.

In my experience this became more of a problem when video was integrated into the mainboard, or worse yet into the chipset, and even worse than that when you have systems where video is integrated into an SoC processor. The latter are a lot of small form factor PCs using Intel Atom and similar AMD offerings, laptops and netbooks, etc.

One fix might be to buy an add-in card for video assuming you have an open slot for it. But even that can leave you high and dry when you next run into LAN driver, audio driver, etc. problems with other integrated hardware.
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Old 09-29-2013, 05:29 PM
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The consequences of declaring WPF is dead seems to toll the bell.

Especially considering that Barnes was formerly a Microsoft Rich Platform Product Manager (WPF & Silverlight).

Quote:
WPF is dead. Ok. Now what. Do you go HTML5? Probably yes, but do you honestly think WPF being alive or dead have influence to this discussion – more to the point do you think this blog is going to send companies racing for HTML5 now? I would say if a decision is to go down the HTML5 path that thought was planted well before I arrived there.

Do you invest in iOS or Android? Again, go for it watch the dollars you were going to spend on HTML5 and WPF escalate given its not only foreign development practices to your existing .NET space but you probably will have to absorb the time to up skill or hiring of specialist teams to do the work (India outsourcing can only buy you so much).

If this blog is the catalyst to a WPF team getting the termination letters then you were cooked well before I arrived I’m just the 1000th cut.
Related post there:

The Unofficial Windows 8 Developer FAQ

Quote:
Today, I’m going to attempt to do something Microsoft staff should have done long ago or didn’t do correctly or simply were held back from doing so. I’m going to release the Unofficial FAQ on “What Just happened” in Microsoft for developer(s) worldwide.

Last edited by dilettante; 09-29-2013 at 06:23 PM.
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